Since I am not rich and the military might be an option( 8 to10 years of duty? ). Flight school might be the “easiest path”, but is it worth taking 100k in student loans debt? I currently live in New York City, 28 Years old, and since I have been a kid I have been fascinating about planes. I have been reading articles about the pilot shortage, but how real this shortage is / will be in the future? This will sounds crazy, but sometimes I think about taking a loan/eating the bullet and jump into my new path since seniority is everything right ? at the same time taking debt is never the best financial decision since God know how many years will take me to pay this debt off.
I am looking forward on your recommendations since I would like to take my decision within this year and your help will benefit a future pilot.
These are grownup decisions that only you can make. You’re young and senior airline pilots make over $350k. That said nothing is guaranteed. When I started there was no shortage and pay was a fraction of what it is now. For me I love my job, paid off my loans a decade ago and my only regret is I didn’t do it sooner.
This question is for you to answer. Everyone’s definition of worth is different. It’s not all about the finances. There are people in their min-50’s who have asked this same question and still decided to pursue this career, knowing that they will never make it to a major airline. For them it’s more about fulfilling a life-long dream. So, for someone like you in their late 20’s, you actually have the potential to see up to 30 years at a major. Considering the potential earnings one would receive at the major airline level, I doubt you’ll be questioning whether or not that $100k investment was worth it.
That said, nothing in this industry is guaranteed. Nothing will be handed to you either. You’ll have to work for it. Hard. Taking on debt to do something that you’ve never done before comes with inherent risk. It’s your responsibility to prevent that decision from becoming a huge mistake. So, if you haven’t already taken an intro flight that’s the first thing I would do. You need to make sure that your fascination of aviation is more than that. There’s a lot of helpful information on how to go about this as well as other first step-type guidance in the FAQ section of this forum.
I would encourage you to really think about your reasons for joining the military prior to doing so. If your primary motivation is to serve your country, that is great and is to be applauded. If your motivator is free flight training, then I think you will be sorely disappointed. The military is a whole lifestyle, it will affect every thing you do for the rest of your life. Just make sure you have the right reasons in mind when making a decision like this.
The shortage is very real and is projected to continue for many years.
I would argue against your thoughts on debt. I find that debt can be a very smart choice when done for the right reasons, in this case an education. It isn’t like we are talking about buying a car stereo here on a payment plan. This is an education that can and will benefit you the rest of your life.
Thanks for all of your replies and opinions. Right after reading this I started informing myself more and more and reading pretty much everything that comes through this forum. Here are some updates and also questions that I have for you (so far);
Adam and Tory; you guys are right, if I started now I will be completing my 1,500 hours by the time I am 32 years old (more or less). Therefore, with a 4 years college degree and with at least 30 years of working profession ahead of me (if everything works right) I guess I could be making around 200k - 350k close to my retirements career.
Chris; There is nothing wrong about the military and I feel it is a great way to serve the country. I have talked with couple of recruiters and there is a 50/50 chance if I make it to the aviation program since the age cut off is at 28. ( Yes there are some waivers).
I have been in contact with Kirk regarding my fiances and we just have to wait and see if Sallie Mae approves me.
I have the following questions guys,
What is your intake regarding the accelerated program ? from my understanding seniority is everything therefore the faster I get to the field the better ? even if this comes at a huge cost?
Regarding finances, if I take 100k over the course of 15 years this loan will become more like a 200k loans, and my understanding from this industry is that if I loose my job at X airlines and then get hired by Y airlines I will be starting from Zero, so I better love this since I might be eating slices of pizza for a while?
regarding seniority, If I go the military route vs the ATP route once I come from the military 8 to 10 years from now, would I start at the regionals or can I apply and get a job at the legacy carriers ?
Last question, What made you guys choose ATP as your school of choice ?
We are all successful graduates of ATP and we all recommend accelerated programs for not only seniority purposes, but also transitioning into the airline level. New hire training at the airlines is no joke. If you can’t keep up, you’ll wash out. Coming from an accelerated background will prime you for new hire training.
I would hope so.
Depends. I’m sure others will provide more detail, but skipping the regionals is not guaranteed and certainly not the best way to be looking at this. The military is not simply a flight school alternative. That is not the military’s primary objective nor should it be yours if you decide to join.
At first glance it looked too good to be true. The more I researched and the more people I spoke with the more I realized that ATP was the real deal.
As Tory said, the accelerated program is much more than getting there faster. It’s about preparing for the pace of training at the airlines. ATP was created over 30 yrs ago specifically to train pilots for the airlines. On the plus side there’s this huge shortage and the Regionals are hiring like mad. Problem is they’re also experiencing the highest failure rates ever. ATP forces you to study and train to give you a taste of what’s to come. As for your “even if this comes at a higher cost?” I suggest you do some real research. Flight training is not cheap regardless of where you go. Most local schools quote numbers based on unrealistic FAA mins. If you use national averages and all the hours, licenses and ratings required you’ll find ATP is actually not a bad deal.
Not sure what you’re asking but yes if you lose your job you’re back at the bottle, maybe. The fact is airlines invest a ridiculous amount of money training pilots and it’s actually pretty difficult to get fired unless you do something really stupid (harassment, DUI, failed drug test, etc.). If that happens getting hired at another airline could be very difficult if not impossible. Btw, what’s wrong with pizza?
As for the military I know quite a few military pilots and unless I’m mistaken if that’s a route you’re considering you’re already too late as the max age for most pilot slots is 28 (32 IF you have some military flight experience) and that’s IF you can secure a slot. Further ask any military pilot (again I know many) and they’ll tell you enlisting to learn to fly is a terrible reason. The military involved much more than free pilot training. It’s a huge commitment, a lifestyle and there’s the whole going to war thing. Finally most military pilots still need to go to a Regional first because the reality is they don’t do that much flying. If you want to serve your country then by all means but if you want to be a pilot go to flight school.
Simple. When I was looking at flight schools there was no pilot shortage. Just getting an interview was a major accomplishment let alone getting hired. I visited virtually every large flight school the was and the fact was that ATP grads were getting hired while others were not. Why? Because by completing ATPs accelerated training they already demonstrated their ability to keep up with the fast pace of airline training.
There is nothing wrong with the military, nobody ever said there was. We simply cautioned you to do it for the right reasons and I stand by that,
I am a firm believer in accelerated training. If you want to be an airline pilot, you might as well train like one. Also, seniority truly is everything, so the sooner you can get to the airlines the better. I dispute that ATP comes at a higher price, I think if you really do some research you will find that it is very competitive with other flight schools.
As for the loan repayments, yes, a furloughed pilot needs to start at the bottom of another airlines seniority lists. But as for the loan having to be repaid, that is true of any educational loan.
Some do go straight from the military to the majors, some don’t. It depends on what kind of experience you get in the military and how much of it you get, plus what the current hiring situation is at the time.
I chose ATP because I went to a local school for my private and it was a disaster. It took way too long, cost too much money and was cumbersome. I had a cousin who had sailed through ATP and was now flying for the airlines. He highly recommended the program so I did my own investigation and found it to be a good option for me.
Thanks for sharing all your thoughts since this has been very helpful. At the moment I am working on my finances to see how soon I can jump into the accelerated program ( I will keep you all updated on this). Regarding the military;
It is possible for me for joining the NAVY or Marines with a waiver approved by the board. I have been doing some research and it is probably not the most ideal way to get a free training since you are locked in a contract for about 8 to 10 years (There is nothing wrong about serving this country and I am a huge supported, but that life style for 10 years might push it to me - my opinion).
Adam; probably I was not clear but I meant regarding seniority status at your job and loose it was something as this situation. Say you are working for X airlines for about 10 years and your seniority is up there, but tomorrow this X airlines goes bankrupt or they have to laid off employees and unfortunately someone looses his/ her job. After getting hired by Y airlines do you start right at the bottom ?
Lastly, Yes at this point I am going for ATP since I have been doing research about other schools and the cost is about the same or from what I heard there are a lot of hidden fees, and I agreed with the accelerated program mentality if airlines operates this way too.
Chris, is that the case with a merger? Say airline X buys airline Y. Does the airline Y seniority list get tacked onto the bottom of airline X’s list? Since pilots have (I assume) zero say in whether or not mergers occur, that’s got to look absolutely bleak from the point of view of senior captains at airline Y, who suddenly have less seniority than the most junior pilot at airline X.
No. When two airlines merge, or one acquires the other, there is actually a federal level that applies that requires the pilots to be blended into one seniority list in a fair and equitable manner. Now of course that is subject to interpretation and usually ends up in arbitration, but that is the way it is supposed to work.
The answer is sometimes but hopefully not but it can happen. Mergers are complicated and while pilots generally do not have a say the union often does. Alpa is the largest pilot union in the US and if both carriers are Alpa it makes things easier since we’re all kind of on the same page. Problem is not all airlines are in the same union.
There’s basically 3 ways these things can go:
getting stapled to the bottom: Least desirable obviously for the guys getting stapled. While those on top come out ahead, creates lots of bad blood in the group. No bueno.
date of hire: clean and makes sense to all. New list created using the date of hire. Very straightforward. Problem is doesn’t account for “relative seniority”.
relative seniority: VERY complex but potentially most fair (depending on individual take) but also often creates bad blood. Best if both airlines are of comparable size if not people get angry. (ie, I’ve been at Hawaiian for 7yrs., I’m a 717 Capt, could also be a 321 Capt or a very senior 330 FO and I’m almost half way up the seniority list. We’re relatively small compared to the big 3 (we have approx 850 pilots, United has 12,000). If say United were to buy Hawaiian, at only 7yrs, I’d be nowhere near 50% seniority and probably couldn’t hold Capt on anything. If they were to use relative seniority I’d be merged in at around 50% and get to keep my seat. Problem is that puts me ahead (or close) of Chris who’s been there 13. I’m happy, Chris is not.
Thanks for the detailed response, Adam! Wow, that is messy. My initial thought was that date-of-hire made the most sense, but now I see the greater complexity given the sometimes wildly different airline sizes and pilot pools, as you illustrated. I’m sure no one wants to lose ground on their career track.
Interesting what you said about different unions. If there are two different unions involved, does that just add an additional layer of bickering as all try to decide whose rules are going to be followed?
Laura EVERYTHING adds an additional layer. No union wants to feel like they got beaten by another. If you’re bored Google the USAir/America West merger. Their pilots were in court for almost a decade and the only thing that stopped it was American coming in and buying USAir which then created another string of lawsuits. Very messy business.
UFFFFF that is a hard pill to take since I thought this was the same as lets say you hold a high position at some financial institution, and for reasons outside of your control you loose your job. If everything goes well you will get hired at another company with the same or similar position. If I stay positive (and knock in wood), and if you work at any of the legacy airlines this will never happen to you or any other pilot.
That is the hope that it never happens, but it certainly has and most likely will again. Seniority really is the only fair way to do things though, especially in an industry like this.
